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I just bought this one used on half.com. This looks to be good. Is it? It appears to go completely against the prosperity/self-help message taught by many today. Books like Quitter, Your best life Know, fired to hired, Thou Shall Prosper, The Millionaire Mind, etc are all self-help and quick fix that worship success, and wealth.



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Ok? So what is your POV? You said you saw my POV (which I think was just an opinion) and then you asked me to see yours. The sermon you sent me says,"Basically The problem in employment Can always be reduced to one single sin And that is the sin of greed." so with that being said, how can work be a blessing in you opinion if anything and everything relating to it is all about greed? What about non-profits? They employ people? They are all greedy?

"All of these pastors are successful, and all of these pastors have a biblical hermeneutic and worldview. Speaking with my pastor today (who by the way has been more successful than me) he said this. The Apostle Paul did not get a job that he LOVED as a tent maker. He worked long hours, and never complained about it in his letters."

Just out of curiosity, how does your pastor know this?

Also, buying a SELF-help book and complaining that it relies too much on self is like buying a cookbook and complaining that it relies too much on food as ingredients.  These books aren't written to be, or take the place of, your Bible.  I know that you don't agree with everything in there, you mention it every time you mention the books, but the fact is, the authors themselves probably don't either.  Dave Ramsey said on his own show that he doesn't agree with everything in his EntreLeadership book.  Why?  Because we all continue to grow, perspectives continue to shift, etc.  There is no reason, however, that you can't take any of those books, read them and glean great perspectives and actions that can help, and use them along with your Bible-trained way of life and perspectives.

This isn't an either-or situation.  Why make it one?  Utilize both perspectives to live life better.  The Bible is full of principles that can be applied to any situation, but we sometimes need someone that sees things like we do already and that has changed their perception to open our eyes.  There is nothing wrong with that.  A person that suffers from a mental illness made need to read books that address that particular problem and expound upon it.  The Bible doesn't spend hours on end discussing bipolar disorder.  There would certainly be nothing wrong with reading such a book though, even though it might promote self-help and quick fix solutions to change one's perspectives.  The same goes for other aspects of life, including how one earns a living and to what extent he prospers in this world that we live in.  The Bible gives some great principles, but people may need more specific tools in certain areas of life to open their eyes and hit on specifics they need to work on.  


Jesus Christ the Head of the Church

We chuckle about those things cause it's so absurd.  But how can the Lord speak to His church if we don't know what He means by what He says?  How can He speak to His church if He's dead?  How can He speak to His church if you take the Bible out and put in whatever else?  Psycho-babble, self-help therapy in a zillion forms.  Current evangelical trends really do attack the headship of Christ and an unwillingness, for example, to distinguish between the invisible true church and the visible professing church.  It's so confusing now in the contemporary evangelical movement that people don't even want to find out who really belongs to the church and who is under the authority of Christ.  Entrepreneurialism tends to reign where you have a thousand little Christs running their own little entrepreneurial thing and calling it a church and it's a product of human cleverness, creativity, ingenuity with a weak gospel, indifferent to propositional truth minimizing the Word of God.  Christ rules through His revealed truth preached, explained, applied, upheld.  And at the same time today there is a growing disdain for faithful mediators of Christ's headship.  Who are they?  Faithful expositors.  Those are the mediators, the human instruments, the human agents that bring to bear the rule of Christ to His church...true elders, true pastors.

Bye the way people some of you MAY not be reading my arguments and the articles I am citing. In a formal debate this would be a disadvantage to your case. Please by all means READ and listen to the articles and podcasts.

I have read more than enough self-help books so I know your side in and out. But do you know mine? Thats the question. If ppl refuse to read and listen to what I have cited I will back out as this is not a REAL debate.

I have been in real debates and had ppl recite my case line by line.

Life is not a debate.....  I dislike and am uncomfortable debating and you seem to enjoy  and thrive on it.  My  goal is to accomplish worthwhile endeavors which includes serving others.  I think you would really enjoy a career based on debate and confrontation.  Have you considered politics?  How about a debate coach? 

Debate and confrontation? What jobs? 



Unfortunately, John has a habit of misquoting scripture to support his perspective or he lacks contextual understanding of the Bible. Once again, his Pastor gave him half-truth on the Apostle Paul and his tent-making skills. If after speaking to his Pastor, John had gone home and searched and read his Bible carefully, he could have gotten the revelation on Paul and tent-making. Let me try to help out. 

Acts 18: 1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them.  Why did Paul do this? The early church was devoted to Christ, and Paul as a minister who was traveling across the world to preach the message, he didn't want to be a financial burden to the church (Acts 20:33-35, Philippians 4:14-16, to name a few). Making tents enabled Paul to set an example to the believers that while they were waiting for the return of Christ, there was no need to sit idle while their talents went to waste. In our modern day, we have these crowd of "waiting on GOD." Also, Paul hoped to win non-believers by showing through example that working was not incompatible with Christ's message.  For Paul, vocational identity coupled with excellence of work and lifestyle influenced colleagues to follow Jesus Christ. The money that Paul earned in the tent-making enabled him to minimize his reliance on the church for funding, and to preach GOD's word without compromise and fear that admonishing believers could have financial implications for him. The idea that Paul gave-up tent-making to preach the word is without basis and shows a level of ignorance that is troubling.Wherever Paul went and found other believers in the tent-making business, he helped out in order to show his skills and earn income.  Lastly, in addition to the example of Paul, many other famous people from the Bible supported themselves during their ministry. Abraham raised livestock, Joseph was a govt official, Nehemiah was a cup-bearer to the King, Luke was a physician. Even Jesus was a carpenter. 


The Bible is clear that one must DENY themselves (Mt 16:24-25). Moses was not given a fulfilling career when he was in the desert for 40 years was he?

The False Gospel of Self-Esteem

The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment. And that puts it in opposition to the contemporary evangelical gospel, where ministers view Jesus as a utilitarian genie. You rub the lamp, and He jumps out and says you have whatever you want; you give Him your list and He delivers.

Defending the true gospel has put me in pretty serious opposition to folks who don't want to take the Bible seriously. I always say that the people I pastor at Grace Church must have a heart to submit to the Word of God, because that's the message they're going to get, unadorned and unadulterated, every time they walk through the door. If they're not willing to face the hard truth of conviction over their sins, the hard disturbing reality of self-denial and the hard demands of following Christ, they're not going to hang around very long.

Will God give me a fulfilling career? I certainly hope so. But the way it has to be defined has to be Biblical. Will I prosper and get wealth? Perhaps. Everything is all left to God. Does this mean that I should not look for a job? Not by any means. Does this make work bad? No it does not.

Guys I have had enough of this. This is taking away from my time hunting for jobs.. We are not going to agree on this subject so its best to leave it at that.


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